Gender stuff

[vilakins]

I haven't posted much lately. Time for a catch-up.

Last Wednesday I inadvertently went off to a friend's apartment on the waterfront without knowing there was a tsunami warning. I think it had fizzled out; I didn't see anything and I heard it was about 40cms. Anyway, this friend dresses her little boy in blue and green and grey, and her little girl in... pink. Pretty much all pink, or pink and red flowers on white, with frills and bows and whatnot. She's only two so she probably hasn't any taste of her own yet, but I am so glad my parents let me dress the way I liked when I was older, in shorts and t-shirts, stripes etc, and in colours I liked, none of which were pink. Actually I have grown to like a bright, strong pink, but only as an accent colour. It carries a lot of baggage.

An aside: a colour-blind guy once told me that he was puzzled for years about why the world's armies mostly dressed in pink. I wish. Also someone once said that red is a strong, aggressive colour and blue is calming, so maybe dressing kids in paler versions of those will even things out. Once again, I wish.

Further on gender stereo-typing though, I got talked into taking part in a children's charity thing which sends gifts to kids in the islands. You have to fill a shoebox with various gifts: something to cuddle, something to play with, to use at school, for personal hygiene, to wear etc. Then you label the box "girl" or "boy" and give an age range. I rebelled against that and bought things I thought any kid would like: felt-tip pens in a pencil case, stickers, a maraca, two ping-pong bats and three balls, a hacky-sack, a yo-yo, sunglasses, a cap, some dinosaurs, and a plushie I think is a dinosaur or possibly a frog. Plus some soap and a toothbrush. I shall label it "girl OR boy. 8-10". I daresay that will annoy them no end, but hey, it might fix an imbalance by one child anyway.

As a kid, I played with boys' toys and would not have liked to get a box of pink assumed girls' stuff. In fact I'd have probably lied about my sex. I used to on holiday when no one knew me, because it's not blondes who have more fun. It's boys.

Maybe I should label my box "boy" with a "tom" on the front. :-)

Comments

[toft]

Good for you!

[vilakins]

I just hope the kid likes the gifts.

[brewsternorth]

Good thinking indeed!

Augh, the shoebox people (I'm guessing it's this bunch?). I mean, there may be a small number of things more appropriate towards girls than towards boys, but yeah, stereotyping = not cool.

[vilakins]

Yep, those people. A friend gave me one of their shoe boxes. The gifts go to the Pacific islands from here; I suppose all countries support different places.

[Edit] And now I see from your link that they're "evangelical Christians", no wonder they push the gender stereotypes. Still, plenty of non-religious parents like my friend do the same.

I'm hoping my gifts please whoever gets them. :-) Of course, it works both ways; I've known boys who weren't interested in traditional boys' toys.

[spacefall.livejournal.com]

Urgh, I hate all this pink-is-for-girls crap. It's so pervasive. I even found that, in the 'dressing up' section of a shop, the realistic police hats were labelled as for boys, and the frilly fluffy pink ones for girls 0.o wtf?! I hate girls and boys sections in shops. They're kids! For years my nephew did not assign a sex to me at all, but now he's started school and learn that some things are not allowed depending on sex: 'noo that's for girls!'

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Frilly fluffy pink police hats? WTF indeed! As for kids' clothes, I really hate the sexualisation of girls with cut-down versions of revealing sexy adult clothes. There are plenty of fun and funky kids' clothes that will suit any: jeans, overalls, cute colourful sweaters and t-shirts. But then you get the stupid buttoning conventions. I'm used to buttoning either way, having a mix of men's shirts and jackets and plain women's ones, but it's a deal-breaker for males.

'noo that's for girls!'

And of course boys think that's bad per se. They learn early that for or like girls = bad; see a lot of insults bandied about by adults who should bloody know better.

[kalinda001.livejournal.com]

It does seem a sexist and very out-dated thing to do these days. Stereotyping genders like that in terms of gifts. I was quite a tomboy myself when I was young. Preferring to learn woodworking rather than sewing and cooking.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I did too. I'm still better at house maintenance than Greg.

It's possible, as I did, to find gifts that any kid might like. Most charities like that ask you to buy for a sex; I used to get a gift for a children with a parent in prison and you had to pick a sex so I'd pick "girl" and buy art supplies like paints or pencils since I figured girls got the worst deal.

[azdak.livejournal.com]

I would have wanted one of your parcels, and been very miserable if I'd got the pink-and-fluffy kind. On the other hand, I have to admit that I'd also have been disappointed to get a parcel with a load of toy cars, or an Action Man, or a football. So, actually, The Third Way Tomboy Parcel would have been ideal.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't mind a football if it was your sort--soccer--but I wouldn't have had any use for a rugby ball. I loathe thugby. OTOH I did play with tanks and model soldiers and guns, and made model fighter planes and hung them from my ceiling. I'm a lot more pacifist now but I still have a soft spot for tanks, fighters, and camo. :-)

[miss-next.livejournal.com]

I'm the girl who was given a doll's cot by her parents at a very early age, and promptly turned it upside down and used it as a spaceship. They weren't impressed at the time, but wisely they did get used to me. :-)

The thing with me was that I always judged a toy on its imaginative possibilities. Dolls, therefore, I found rather limited on the whole, though I did like Action Girl, since she had the sort of clothes in which it was practical to have adventures (including a very cool pair of flat ankle boots). It was only when I got older and learnt to sew well that they developed a more "domestic" use; I designed outfits for Action Girl and for my sisters' Pippa dolls. We did a display once for our history lessons, and Action Girl ended up chained to a set of railings in an outfit I had designed for her, being a suffragette. I have to say I was jolly proud of that outfit. It had a hat and all.

I've also never been very keen on pink apart from film-fogging fuchsia, and my sisters were both much the same (the rule was generally "red for Deb and blue for Sue" if in any doubt, and it was and still is green for me), but oddly both my nieces insist on the pinkest, fluffiest, frilliest clothes that can be bought for them, much to the bemusement of my sister and her husband, who had envisaged them running around in practical unisex outfits. It just goes to show you never can tell.

Incidentally, do you know that this "pink for girls, blue for boys" mullarkey is less than hundred years old, and in the early 1900s it was actually the other way round? I found that out quite recently, and was fascinated. I bet the pink-for-boys stuff wasn't all frilly and fluffy, though!

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

My parents didn't mind me wanting boys' toys either. My sister OTOH loved dolls and playing brides and dressing up. [rolls eyes] The worst toys for girls I consider to be toy irons and stoves and other non-fun RL things. I don't mind dolls' houses so much because you can role-play a lot in those with suitable action figures and animals.

I did play with two dolls, but as you say, only because they could be used imaginatively. They were small soft plastic ones with nylon hair and I'd immerse them in the bath and have them attack the foreign territory of my sister's knees while she defended with her own two. Those cheap little dolls had movable limbs and very different and expressive faces (probably due to cheap manufacture with soft plastic) and could be used so many ways, unlike the big beautiful doll I was given at five and which I still have--in excellent condition because it was never played with.

Action Girl ended up chained to a set of railings in an outfit I had designed for her, being a suffragette.

That's brilliant!

My parents tended to buy me olive green and brown because they figured it matched my eyes and hair, but it didn't really suit me. I branched out into brighter colours and crisp black-and-white as a teenager.

in the early 1900s it was actually the other way round

I never knew that! Perhaps it really was because it was the pale version of anger and blood and violence, and girls got the calming sky and ocean blue. I wonder why it changed. Guys now avoid pink with a pathological fear, because anything female is by definition contemptible. Grrrr.

[zoefruitcake.livejournal.com]

Incidentally, do you know that this "pink for girls, blue for boys" mullarkey is less than hundred years old, and in the early 1900s it was actually the other way round? I found that out quite recently, and was fascinated. I bet the pink-for-boys stuff wasn't all frilly and fluffy, though!

I was going to say this, but you beat me to it. Pink was 'light red' and a strong, manly colour

[zoefruitcake.livejournal.com]

my mother was definitely in the pink for a girl camp. As a child I hated pink. I wasn't that much of a tom boy, I mean I liked some dolls, but adored lego and anything to do with space. But everything defaulted to pink with my mother. I remember having pink roses on my wallpaper, when I wanted the William Morris style green ferns that the bathroom got. I remember needing wool for school, and asking my mother to get me anything but pink. She got me pink. Sigh

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

How infuriating! [notes pink icon however] Actually that icon looks like the dresses my friend's daughter wears.

My sister and I shared a room and my mother decided to redecorate it one day when I was about 13 without consulting us. We got pink wallpaper with little silver and gold outlines of ballerinas. WTH? I said that since I hadn't been asked, could I choose the curtains? I got an abstract print in bright lime greens and yellows. Bwahahaha!

[bramblyhedge.livejournal.com]

I like the "Tomboy" option. :D Not that I actually was one as a child, but I did have a profound disinterest in pink and dolls and a huge interest in tree-climbing and animals (still love any and all critters to this day). My parents quickly learned never to buy me dolls (shaved heads and limb severing made the point clear) as I preferred plushie animals.

This pink/blue gender divide as a statement of social acceptability in childhood is weird, isn't it. I wonder if it's because They (the capital They) think otherwise kids will turn out gay? The plague reaction men have to pink is also fear of being thought homosexual, & not necessarily a "female = bad" reaction.

Anyhow, I must add here that the girls I knew at school who insisted on wearing uniform trousers rather than skirts, and had short hair, and etc - are 99% married with chidren of their own these days. Meanwhile the very striking long-blonde-hair girl who always wore dresses and makeup - she now has a cute Asian girlfriend. :) So, no, pink is not a childhood innoculation to Teh Gay. :D

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I was just thinking about how schools force girls to wear skirts; at least most around here do. My first high school (I went to three) had trousers for winter, but a dress for summer, but I never see schoolgirls in trousers if their schools have uniforms. The weird thing is the number of year 13s who wear ankle-length skirts; either it's the standard or a school fashion thing. I'd trip over the stupid thing.

I was one of those who dressed as a boy before high school, and had short hair most of her life, but I've never gone the normal kids and domestic scariness route. My sister did all that (and was a gorgeous long-haired blonde beauty contest winner, blah blah, Quinn to my Daria) and she always wanted to. She's happy with it, but it annoys me that people assume that's normal and women who don't want kids aren't.

[emerald-happy.livejournal.com]

Oh, I did one of those shoebox gift things at school and it asked to write girl or boy on it. Most of the stuff I did put in could have gone for either except I also put in these hairclips I'd never wear so ended up just writing 'girl' on it.

It freaks me out that when I see kids clothes they're mini versions of adult clothes (especially for girls) and pretty expensive. I think - aren't they going to wreck them running around outside or grow out of them soon?

Pink was my favourite colour when I was eight years old but I didn't like ruffles and flowers. I hated the outfits my dolls originally had so started making my own. I didn't mind getting pink assumed girls stuff because I could make other things out of it. The teacup saucers became food and water dishes for my plushie cats and I painted the doll's house half black, half multicoloured for Winnie the Witch.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I hated ruffles and bows, and still do. I remember making any bows I encountered in colouring books black to express my distaste, and I was only 5 or 6. :-)

The teacup saucers became food and water dishes for my plushie cats and I paited the doll's house half black, half multicoloured for Winnie the Witch.

Awwww, lucky plushie cats (of which I have about 15, hem hem) and that dolls' house sounds awesome. I love how people here have adapted things to suit them. :-)

[jhall1.livejournal.com]

The sad thing is that it seems to be the mothers, at least as much as the fathers, who encourage gender stereotyping in their children.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

And I suspect that the ones who object to it like me never have the kids to bring up another way.

[vjezkova.livejournal.com]

I am so glad you feel about the thing like that! I agree entirely, being a tomboy myself and my both children grew up in this style as well in spite of a pressing attempts from the side of my husband´s mum (pink, dolls, sexism like a hell). Thank you!!! :-):-)

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of us here were tomboys. It may go with the love of SF. :-)

[jecono.livejournal.com]

Nele was often taken for a boy when she was smaller - I hated that (I was often mistaken for a boy until I was 12 or 13 and I also hated it. I thought boys were stupid given that I had two younger brothers at that time ;-))! I think if you cannot tell whether it's a boy or a girl - I know it can be hard - you should simply ask the parent.
I don't mind anymore. I dress her in colours that I think suit her well - and pink does. As does green and blue and red. And brown. I like brown because you can hardly see the dirt on it ;-).

I think that kids mostly want to do what the grown-ups they are around are doing. As I am a so-called stay-at-home mom she likes to work in her kitchen - she cooks all kinds of meals and lots of coffee. I know of at least two boys her age that do the same. And she loves to put clothes on the clothes rack/horse (?) - since she sees me do it almost every day. I kept looking for the kiddy version at the flea markets and a friend once pointed out that there were lots of ironing boards to be found at that particular market (we were there together and I asked her to look out for clothes racks). I told her that Nele would be highly disappointed - she never sees me using an iron let alone the board!

Nele got her birthday present from us today - more than a week late, because we thought she had too much going on on her birthday already. She got a black doll. She loves it. She loves to put her dolls (she's also playing with the one I got for my 5th birthday - also black) and her plushies on her high chair next to her. This morning she told me her doll wanted cheese. I gave her a piece and then she said "Nele auch!"
I have to go now Nele just woke up - there is so much more to say on that subject! :)

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I dress her in colours that I think suit her well - and pink does. As does green and blue and red. And brown.

In that case. go for it! You're doing it for the right reasons: it suits her, not because she's a girl. As I said. I like a strong, bright pink. It doesn't really suit me though so I only wear it as an accent. I never once wore it a a kid because I had red hair (now browner) and my mother thought that clashed. :-) My blonde sister and I were often in matching clothes, green for me, blue for her.

When I was older, 7 or so,. I was often taken for a boy, and I loved it. Boys' games were so much more fun.

And if Nele naturally wants to play with dolls, like my sister, that's also absolutely fine! What I object to to forcing girls into a role if they don't want it. I tried to choose gifts that would appeal to any child, and I hope I succeeded.

I have loads of plushies now (which I didn't as a kid) and that's not very tomboy, but I believe in people being free to go their own way. and you're doing that with Nele. My sister and I were so different, it was really obvious. My brother and I, though years apart, played all the time.

[san-valentine.livejournal.com]

I feel lucky that in spite of being an only girl - after two sons - my parents never really tried to push me into being girly. I hardly ever wore pink, and remember red, tartans, orange, brown and white particularly for party dresses.

I had a baby doll (or was it just Rachael next door who had it ?) that I never played with much. Once you'd dressed it, there was nothing else to do with it. When I was 8, I asked for the Butch Cavandish action figure (Lone Ranger's enemy) and his horse for Xmas - and got them. I ended up with Butch, the Lone Ranger, Pegleg the pirate and a cowboy to replace him when he broke, Sindy, Action girl and Peter (an equestrian action figure). Plus nine horses for them. I made a few clothes, plus cardboard armour and a cloth for Blitz, so she could be a knight's horse. I made a rucksack for carrying stuff on adventures, and a rope ladder so they could climb into places when having adventures. My dolls climbed trees, swung on ropes and death slides, went paragliding tied to a kite, used roller skates as go-karts, swam in ponds and streams, sailed an Action Man dinghy in the sea, drove a jeep outside and rode horses in gardens, woods and fields.
I also had toy cars, lego and a Scalextric set. Plus a few cuddly toys :)

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

When I was 8, I asked for the Butch Cavandish action figure (Lone Ranger's enemy) and his horse for Xmas

You started young! That sounds like a wonderful collection of fun things! I had two very cheap dolls I could put in water and they had a lot of adventures. We also RPed Star Trek using a tree platform as the Enterprise and beamed down by jumping. :-)

Are any of your western figures from your childhood?

[arenee1999]

All of the blue is for boys/pink is for girls irritates me. It's fine if those are the colors that the kid likes, but if not they shouldn't be forced to wear it. The same goes for toys. They should get the kind of toys they like, not what is 'appropriate for their gender'. There is no such thing. You like what you like and that's all there is to it.

My favorite colors as a child were pink and purple (lavender) and I played with dolls. However, I also loved toy cars, dinosaurs and my He-Man and She-Ra action figures. Barbies tended to get beheaded and their arms and legs torn off. But more than anything my favorite 'toys' were books, coloring books and activty books. I grew out of the pink/purple phase around age 9.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

To the first para: absolutely! My sister was a traditional girl who loved dolls and playing brides etc, and hey, that was her. My brother and I played other games, though she did occasionally join in the STar Trek and WW2 RPs. I don't remember any of us wearing pink till Jenni was a teenager and chose some bright pink. When we were small, we wore matching clothes, me in green and Jenni in blue (my mother thought they suited our hair) but later I went into tomboy outfits and she stayed in dresses.

But more than anything my favorite 'toys' were books, coloring books and activty books.

YES! YES! YES! I tended to be rather geeky, preferring to read or do art, or make model planes and tanks, but this did bother my parents a bit because kids should be outside. They were quite happy about the war games and Star Trek RPs I organised with visiting kids and one hairy alien (our dog Peter). :-)

[jaxomsride.livejournal.com]

I hated pink and still do. My daughter went through a pink phase as a little girl, it used to make me shudder inwardly but she got to choose what she wanted. I did make sure there was a mix of other colours as well. Then she went purple and black and gothy in her teens and now hates the colour! :¬D

I was always a tomboy and preferred trousers to skirts and dresses. Having two older brothers made for hand me downs that I was happy with.
I was never really into dolls, just played with them when my sister wanted to. We had as much fun playing football, bike polo, Star Trek, musketeers and gladiators (and still have the skinned knuckles to prove it) so weren't 'programmed' too much.

Yes label it tomboy and make some little girl very happy!
PS add a pad for the pens.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

It's fair enough if she liked pink. I often think it's forced on girls. My little nephew loved pink and lime green and other bright clear colours, and got to wear them. :-)

I never thought of bike polo! Otherwise that sounds like us. I used to love wrestling so much, I remember when mum called us inside once, I said, "Can't we fight half an hour longer?"

I looked at pads but they were all for offices and lined. I'll have a look at the stationers.

[bigdamnxenafan.livejournal.com]

Maybe I should label my box "boy" with a "tom" on the front. :-)

Excellent idea! I was a total tomboy as a child and would have much appreciated someone realizing "hey! kids like me exist and are normal!"

I rebel against the whole swathing girls in pink as well. I purposefully bought baby clothes for Meg that were in any color but pink. I also did up her nursery with baby oriented theme instead of a "girl" one. As she grew older I continued to shun pink. She owns as many trucks and rocketships and other traditionally "boy" toys as she does girly playthings. In many ways she follows in my tomboy footsteps. However, guess what her favorite color is....you guessed it PINK. lol All on her own she picked it. What can a mother do?

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Giving her a choice is great! I loved boys' toys (I could work an electric train's points when I was two and loved being taken to see trains or factories) and had loads of tanks, guns, and model planes, but my sister loved traditional gir;s' toys and games. And fair enough, too. I just object to a role being forced on a child--and I've known boys who would have preferred to have other toys but weren't allowed. I'm so glad my parents, like you, let me choose.

If Meg likes pink, that's OK! Mind you, some of it could be due to TV and other influences. I admit to liking it as a colour now, but it doesn't suit me anyway. FWIW I never wore it as a kid: I was usually in green and my sister in blue because my mother thought those suited us best. :-)

Boys' games and toys are so much better because you can play RP games with them. :-D

[luinielle.livejournal.com]

Your post made me laugh. :o) Growing up, we were five girls and one boy. Our youngest sister was the only one who played with dolls. If anyone else got a doll, it went directly to her. Frilly dresses, anything lacy, anything pink went to her. As we grew older, she grew wiser and would refuse to take our unwanted (and sometimes loathed) dolls and pink... stuff, unless she got something cool in return (ie, we'd take her chores, let her get that all important first shower in the morning, our share of dessert). Except for stuffed animals. All of us (minus bro) loved stuffed animals. Other than that, we would fight my brother for his cool toys - legos, building blocks, train sets, mini racing cars.. My parents didn't care, but I think some of the older aunties frowned and shook their heads.

I love your tomboy box. :o)

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

My sister was like yours. but my parents knew our tastes and gave us the toys we liked--or books as well in my case. I had tanks, guns, model planes and a train set (which I so mourn) etc. The only things we were forbidden were comics of any sort, so I used to visit a boy I knew the day after Christmas and borrow all his boys' annuals and comics. :-)

All I need to put in the box now is a sketch pad small enough to fit. :-D

[spacefall.livejournal.com]

In case nobody has posted this already, this was mentioned on radio 4 the other day http://www.pinkstinks.co.uk/

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

That made me soooo angry. Repackaging games for girls in pink? Fluffy finance with pink heart bullet points? VOMIT! I would rip into anyone who offered me those. Go them for finding better models like the cricketer (who until fairly recently wouldn't have been allowed to play in trousers).

My friend's kid now has some green and yellow clothes, which is a nice change. Pity about all the flowers though.