Moffat and misogyny

[vilakins]

Like everyone else I was delighted to hear that Steven Moffat has taken over from RTD as Head Writer/Exec Producer--until snowgrouse reminded me of some of his misogynist outpourings. Here are two excerpts.

"There's this issue you're not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That's the truth. We don't, as little boys, play at being married--we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands."

"Well, the world is vastly counted in favour of men at every level--except if you live in a civilised country and you're sort of educated and middle-class, because then you're almost certainly junior in your relationship and in a state of permanent, crippled apology. Your preferences are routinely mocked. There's a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male."

So you don't think society, toys, and TV have any role in moulding kids' expectations, then? As long as he, unlike Ben Steed, keeps his prejudices out of his stories--and he has so far--I'll be happy.

Comments

[babel.livejournal.com]

This is only one of the many reasons I'm not thrilled that Moffat is taking over. His complete fail at continuity being another reason.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

You mean with old Who? I know so little of it, that's passed me by.

[babel.livejournal.com]

No, I mean with New Who.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I fail at New Who too (and sound like an owl).

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

Honestly, with RTD saying "I'll cherrypick what I want of old continuity" can we be surprised that the writers follow his example?

And, really, the old-school continuity...isn't. Like Shakespeare, they wrote with both eyes on the box office, not on precedents. We (the old school fans) accepted that and it's a bit picky of us to expect the new-school-producers to fix those "mistakes"

[kindkit.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping that he's grown up a little in the four years since that interview.

Even if he hasn't, I actually think I'd rather cope with such commonplace misogyny than with RTD's really weird issues. I remembered today that Davies is the person who brought us Bob and Rose, about an unhappy gay man who's rescued from the endless loneliness of the gay lifestyle by falling in love with a blond woman named Rose.

It explains everything about the failure of either New Who or Torchwood to be genuinely egalitarian and progressive in their portrayal of gay and lesbian sexuality.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Huh, I know he'd written a Rose before, but no details. It also worried me that Rose had his first two initials; bit obvious, as were JMS's Jeff Sinclair and John Sheridan.

MY favourite new Who stories are Moffat's; I just hope he keeps his sexism out of future ones--and Donna from falling for Ten.

[babel.livejournal.com]

Surely there is someone out there who both doesn't have RTD's issues AND isn't a misogynist?

[kindkit.livejournal.com]

Well, one would hope. But there's also the fact that Moffat is a damn fine writer. And since his Who writing isn't sexist (at least, I don't see it that way), I'm not sure that his personal dumbass-ness means he won't do a good job with the show.

[babel.livejournal.com]

I'm underwhelmed by his episodes aside from Doctor Dances, so. You guys can be cheerful about your new guy. I will just frown in my lonely corner and wait for him to prove himself to me.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

"Blink" didn't do it for you?

[babel.livejournal.com]

It didn't. It didn't scare me, and the characters bored me.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

Just goes to show that you can't please all of the fans, all of the time. :)(

[babel.livejournal.com]

We'll see how long he can keep Who fans pleased when he's in charge, eh?

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

Personally? I'm optimistic.

[babel.livejournal.com]

Be happy, then. You're in the majority. I've only seen, like, two other people who aren't 100% excited about it.

I'm willing to give him a chance, but I'd rather it was someone else. Whatev. I'm glad other people are happy, anyway. I just wish it didn't go hand-in-hand with RTD hate.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

but I'd rather it was someone else.

Who?

I'm not being snotty, honestly. I'm just wondering who else you would have picked. Helen Raynor? Chris Chibnall? James Strong?

(My money would have been on Chibnall, had he not already been tapped for Torchwood)

[babel.livejournal.com]

Anyone, honestly. Even without the sexism aspect, I don't think he'll be good at long-term plots. Again, I'm willing to give him a chance, but I'm not feeling so good about him.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

Um, to play Devil's Advocate (if you don't mind) this is the guy who ran 3 seasons of a weekly juvie drama (Press Gang) at least two seasons of a weekly sitcom (Coupling). What makes you think he can't handle a weekly drama like Doctor Who?

But, re: sexism, I understand the doubt. "Coupling" was based upon "Friends" and therefore started out a bit behind social mores, to be sure... and "Jekyll" turned my hair white...

[babel.livejournal.com]

Fireplace and Blink both have a disconnect from the rest of their respective series for me. I have no idea how he handles those other shows, or how they are set up, but those shows don't sound like they're anything like Doctor Who.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

*shrug*

Honestly? Imho, writers are flexible. Look at all the genres folks like Neil Gaiman, Clive Barker and Steven King have covered over their careers.

Okay, so I suppose I'm comparing Moffat to them which might be stretching things a tad but I think that the fact that Moffat *has* handled projects like Coupling, Press Gang and Doctor Who proves his flexibility.

Those shows don't sound like they're anything like Doctor Who

So, only a sci-fi writer can do sci-fi? That's a bit limiting, really. Many SF writers began elsewhere, to earn their bread and butter - Terrance Dicks, for example - and then moved into the SF genre.

In my (possibly limited) opinion, Doctor Who isn't about the sci-fi genre, it's about the story. If a scripwriter can hack out a decent story, then I'm happy. I agree that there are - and should be - some reservations about certain writers, such as Helen Raynor, Steven Moffat, Russel Davies, but to cast doubt on their abilities to run an SF show because they haven't run one before is a bit short-sighted.

After all RTD hadn't run an SF show before Doctor Who...

[babel.livejournal.com]

I didn't say anything about SF writers being the only ones who can write SF. I am saying from his past DW episodes, I question his ability to deal with the gigantic amount of DW canon and such.

And all good SF is about the story/characters, by the way.

Really, there are so many people who are excited about this. Is there really any reason to argue it out with me?

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

Is there really any reason to argue it out with me?

Nope, I was just wondering if you had any reason that could be articulated beyond what you had stated, which wasn't all that specific.

Don't hold it against me, alright? ;)

[spacefall.livejournal.com]

Ooookay. 0.0

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

Coupling was pretty drearily stereotypical lads-and-girls fare along the line of the bit you quote. But I can't feel too pessimistic about him taking over; in his Who writing, like you say, he's kept his issues mostly out.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I've enjoyed all his eps, and I can only say that for very few of RTD's. I think it's a very good change going by the on-screen evidence so far.

[laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com]

I have nothing against Coupling which is, if anything, slanted against men (who are portrayed in it as sweet, confused fools fumbling through life). I saw The Girl In the Fireplace, or at least as much of it as I could stomach before anger made me leave the room before I had to kick the TV to death. I'd say it was totally misogynistic, as well as warping the character of the Doctor still further into dirty old man territory.

I'm glad to see Davies going. Aside from his weird, self-hating dislike of gays, he also has deep issues concerning women and children (all his female characters are stupid or evil and most die horribly and children are sinister beings). Then there's the racism, and the total lack of respect for the character of the Doctor.

It shouldn't be Moffat, though. Isn't there someone better? We used to have the best in the world. Where have they all gone?

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

The Girl in the Fireplace she was a product of her times and used the only method a female could then to gain some power (if that's what you didn't like) and I think her fixation of an unchanging man who kept saving her is fairly understandable. I do like other Moffat eps more though.

Martha and Donna are intelligent, strong female characters, though Martha was weakened by her pining for the Doctor, and I fear for Donna. RTD certainly has problems with nagging mothers and absent fathers, and yes, his children are as sinister and doomed as those in ST:TOS--ever noticed that? Very weird and rather at odds with Roddenberry's utopian future.

With you on the racism and lack of respect for the Doctor. Though I did like Nine, Ten seems like a new, adolescent Timelord who hasn't acquired any gravitas, though I do like his appreciation of life; that seems quite Doctorish.

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

The real Mme. de Pompadour had great influence in literature, military matters, foreign affairs, national architecture, and philosophical salons. She was a friend of Voltaire's and a great patron of painting and sculpture. She was a product of her times. The TGitF Mme. de Pompadour was a vivacious blonde party-girl with a Doctor fixation who died unfulfilled without him; she was a product of our times. Not terrible, if leaning a bit uncomfortably to the Rose model, but definitely a more lightweight view of an accomplished woman than the actual woman.

(That episode is my main issue with him, and it's not that bad, even if it raises issues for me. Definitely one of the better points of a season drowning in gender issues.)

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Ah. I didn't know much about her. The ending did ruin the ep for me, that she lived her life waiting for him. But yeah, there are other eps that infuriate me.

[bramblyhedge.livejournal.com]

Then there's the racism

Though RTD did have the first black semi-companion and the first black forrealz-companion [SCORE: Old School Who = zero points, New Who = two points]. Mickey's character arc was a thing of beauty and I adore Martha unreservedly and I kind of fancy the pants off Martha's Mum. What? She's gorgeous. :D

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Yes, he did well by Mickey, and Martha rocks. Even Jackie, the standard nagging mother, eventually became a great character. I was very uncomfortable with what happened to Martha's family in the Master eps though.

And his jokes at the expense of people's appearance? So not even slightly funny. [spork]

I hope Moffat gets us off Earth more often.

[kerravonsen]

Well, he seems to have kept it out of his Who writing, at any rate.

Judging from his episodes, I'd think he'd push Who more towards creepy-horror and adventure.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

If he does as well as he has so far, that'll be good. He'll be heaps better than RTD anyway.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

Ooh. Ow. That's a very good point.

And, honestly? Watching shows like "Coupling", there's no arguing that a male-centric bias is quite palpable.

I suppose that, like many others, I've gotten used to *accepting* the male bias without thinking about it. More shame me. (edited for typo)

However. I would ask anyone to watch what he wrote for "Press Gang" before decrying the guy as a mad misogynist. Granted, I've not seen it, myself, but if anyone's sexist's bias are going to show through, it's going to be in a juvenile drama show. I'm keen to watch it, myself, and reach my conclusion... (edited to expand opinion)

I'm working on getting the DVDs. I'll let you know my opinions...

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I've never seen Coupling or other series he's worked on; I only know Moffat from his Who work which I like and that interview which I was reminded of today. I still prefer him, going by his episodes, to RTD.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

*whistles artlessly*

Drop me an email

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Jekyll is a bit of a disaster from this perspective.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

No kidding!

When I first started watching it, I though "Oooh!".

Then I turned off the hindbrain, engaged the forebrain, watched it a little closer and said "Wait a minute... GAH!"

[altariel.livejournal.com]

It was odd watching it: I felt as if partway through, the writer suddenly twigged where the logic of the narrative was taking him, and tried to turn the tanker around... but by then it was too late.

[zoefruitcake.livejournal.com]

We don't, as little boys, play at being married

this little girl had no interest in that either. why play at that when you can play with lego?

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Exactly! I had tanks and plastic guns and model fighter planes and played at war, and what's more, my parents never told me I should be like my sister whom I remember draping net curtain over her head to be a bride. [gag] I loathed girl's toys: all little plastic stoves and teasets with no potential adventure in them at all. And we can't have been that uncommon: there are tomboys in children's literature like George (the only Enid Blyton character I liked) and Nicola Marlow after whom, to my eternal delight, I was named.

[bramblyhedge.livejournal.com]

I used to pull the heads off plastic baby dolls because I thought they looked horrid and creepy and non-human (plus, I didn't want anything to do with babies and still don't ;P).

I would've DIED and gone to heaven if there'd been remote-control K9 toys back when I was a kid. I got one for myself last Xmas just to satisfy my inner 12-year-old. :D Robot dogs pwn dolls and teasets and bridal clothes.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

They do! As do WW2 and Star Wars models! I do rather fancy RC Daleks to race and unnerve the cats with.

[bramblyhedge.livejournal.com]

Hee! Yes, I want to get a new cat so that I can also buy a RC Dalek to sneak up with behind the cat and scare it. (Hmm. My grammar went awry there, but you get the idea. *lol*) >;3

[glittermouse.livejournal.com]

I quote britgeekgrrl:

" However. I would ask anyone to watch what he wrote for "Press Gang" before decrying the guy as a mad misogynist. "

Yes oh yes. I have all five series and they are incredible writing. I remember them being so even when I originally saw them. It has always been my favorite TV show. Yes, I'm a nerd. :) I wanted to BE Lynda for years and years.

I really enjoyed all of his episodes of New Who, so I am really optimistic about this.

And I have male friends who would state exactly the same thing that The Moff does about white middle class educated males... and I am not sure I wouldn't agree with them. I count myself in the feminist camp, but I would like women to be equal with men, not superior to them.

Anyway that is another issue...

Completely agree on the RTD 'Rose' issue. I had also wondered about her sharing his initials, but then I discovered that Russel was his middle name, and he is actually Steven Russell Davies.

Crossing my paws for Mr Moffett.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen any of his other series but I love his DW stuff. If he keeps his prejudices out of his writing, as I said, I'll be very happy.

I would like women to be equal with men, not superior to them.

Agreed. Actually what I'd like is for gender not to matter, but for people to be judged and liked or not on their abilities and as individuals. That's what I do (and my friendships with guys have often been considered something more which annoys me, but that's a whole other matter).