vilakins | Doctor Who: Journey's End

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Doctor Who: Journey's End

OK, I enjoyed the last two eps so much, I thought RTD might write another rip-roarer.

Um.

OK, bits I liked:

Companion joy, esp Sarah Jane and Martha
Davros remembering Sarah Jane, esp since I'm watching 'Genesis of the Daleks' :-)
Mickey and Jackie! Yay!
Mickey kissing his gun
Mickey's grandmother dying peacefully
Donna and the Doctor doing each other's way of talking
We know what you were thinking, Jack. ;-)
Wilfred. Wilfred rocks, and I'm glad Donna has him
general SFX and music: fun to watch and listen to even if not much of the plot made sense

Bits I didn't:

Why would the Daleks want to destroy the universe/reality? Not much fun having it all if there's nothing to have.
The earth being towed. The acceleration alone would have killed everyone and stripped the atmosphere off
Jack not hugging Donna. Maybe he was wildly jealous of her being with the Doctor. At least I hope that was it
Doctor Mk 2 doing domestic with Rose. Gag. As Molesworth would say, chiz chiz i mite hav nown
Most of all, Donna never knowing she was so wonderful and brilliant. The Doctor realised that she shouted at the world because of low self-esteem, then he took all that she'd gained and learned away from her. She's back where she started. That just so depresses me. I loved someone who thought of herself as a failure and 'nothing special' who never even pleased her own mother being brilliant and really mattering, but she's lost it all. I loved Donna from the start and she really was brilliant. I shall miss her so much.

And yeah, forgive me if I don't believe the Daleks are gone. They keep getting rid of them but they come back. So it's Cybermen at Christmas? Well, what a surprise. Look, how about some new monsters or threats? Ah well, at least we know Moffatt can provide that, so there's some hope for future variety.

***

kerravonsen asked about the German, so I thought I'd put my translation here too. I'm not sure I got it all, but:

The Daleks were saying: "Exterminate, exterminate. You will be exterminated, you are all [couldn't catch it] of the Daleks."

Martha and the guardian or whatever she was:
"There is no one here. Whatever you want, go away. Leave me in peace."
"I'm called Martha Jones. I come from UNIT, agent number 55671, from the medical division."
"You are the nightmare, not them."

Then, when Martha operates the lift and she pulls a gun:
"I should kill you, preferably right now."
And when Martha turns as the doors close:
"Martha, to hell with you." [Martha agrees.]

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We know what you were thinking, Jack. ;-)

(chuckle) Yes, we do.

I also liked the possibility that Martha and Mickey might end up with Torchwood. After all, there are two positions vacant.

Why would the Daleks want to destroy the universe/reality? Not much fun having it all if there's nothing to have.

Because Davros is insane?

Yay for Martha and Mickey, but sadly I don't watch Torchwood because of not liking horror.

I also liked the possibility that Martha and Mickey might end up with Torchwood. After all, there are two positions vacant.

I think that's more than a possibility, more like a racing certainty.

I think that's more than a possibility, more like a racing certainty.

I don't want to get my hopes up.

I'm so glad someone else caught on to Jack's perverted thoughts! I cracked up laughing at that line...unfortunately I was watching with my parents and younger siblings. My little brother wanted to know what Jack was thinking and why it was so funny. So my mother glared at me and told him it was the thought of how much havoc one Doctor could cause, multiplied by three.

Good save, mum.

Oh, and Mickey kissing his gun ^^ That was FANTASTIC! My love for Mickey has greatly increased with this episode. And now it looks like he'll be working for Torchwood! Yay!

The earth being towed. The acceleration alone would have killed everyone and stripped the atmosphere off

No, actually - they were maintaining the atmospheric shell the Daleks had set up, so the planet was mostly protected. It had me scratching my head a bit until I remembered they'd said that.

But oooh, I can't believe what they did to Donna! That's unbelievably cruel. I mean yeah, at least she's still alive and can have a life of her own, but that's just so unfair. RTD, we are not amused.

I don't know. I'm not sure what I thought of this episode. Davros' plot seems a bit stupid even without picking apart the physics of it. It started promisingly and then fell apart a bit, I thought. But what really disappointed me was the lack of follow-up on the whole thing: for everyone except the Doctor it seemed to be 'yay, we saved the world again, back to business as usual'. You'd think they would have done something more with the thing about people being turned into weapons. And after losing Rose (again) and Donna, everyone just goes their separate ways anyway and leaves the Doctor to it.

Well, everyone except Wilfred. He gets major love for that.

I adore Wilfred. I should add him to the bits I loved.

they were maintaining the atmospheric shell the Daleks had set up, so the planet was mostly protected.

Ahhh, thanks. That explains something then. :-)

It's great that Mickey's back, but I don't watch Torchwood, not being keen on horror. :-P

You'd think they would have done something more with the thing about people being turned into weapons. And after losing Rose (again) and Donna, everyone just goes their separate ways anyway and leaves the Doctor to it.

[nods at both points] Though I don't suppose anyone but Sarah Jane thought he needed them to stay around, and she had Luke to get back to. Come to think of it though, SJ hadn't become a weapon, and Mickey and Rose had armed themselves with enormous kick-arse guns back on their AU.

You know, I bet the Doctor will try to pick the timelock like Caan did and save Gallifrey.

You should, definitely. Wilfred is awesome ^^

I've only just started watching Torchwood, but I love it already... Mainly because I'm one of those rabid Jack fangirls sane people try to avoid. I make no apology for it.

*nods* They had some extremely kick-arse guns in the parallel world. Can you blame Mickey for kissing his? XD Not sure about Sarah Jane, though. Jack may have done the actual threatening, but she was the one who provided the warp star in the first place.

You know, I bet the Doctor will try to pick the timelock like Caan did and save Gallifrey.

*winces* Ooo, that could get messy. Excellent idea.

Now he knows that it's possible, it must be a major temptation. Maybe that's how they'll bring the daleks back (for the umpteenth time)? The Doctor finds that he can only being back Gallifrey at the expense of bringing back the daleks.

As for Donna, I'm hoping that they'll find a way around what's been done to her. After all, they've had plaenty of pracrice in New Who of reversing things that seemed to be done deals.

Ah, yes, good point.

I just hope Moffatt's a lot more inventive.

Mercifully, inventiveness does seem to be one trait Moffatt clearly possesses.

OK, I enjoyed the last two eps so much, I thought RTD might write another rip-roarer.

The problem is, he's good at throwing all kinds of entertaining stuff at you as long as it doesn't need to go anywhere, but really bad at satisfying wrap-ups. Or logic. But I may address that some more when I get around to answering the comments on my own post...

And, of course, you already know my thoughts on the ending.

Why would the Daleks want to destroy the universe/reality? Not much fun having it all if there's nothing to have.

Well, "fun" isn't something that enters into it for Daleks, really. They just want to destroy everything that's not a Dalek because that's what they do. I don't think the potential dissatisfaction in having nothing left to fight afterwards is something that ever occurs to them. And getting behind a plan like this actually seems to me to be very much in character for Davros. Have you gotten to the infamous "if you had a virus..." bit in "Genesis" yet?

(Of course, the plan itself is a confusing technobabbly mess, but that's a different matter.)

We know what you were thinking, Jack. ;-)

I did like that bit. :)

Thanks for the German translations, by the way! We did have a German speaker in the room while I was watching, but he's not a huge Who fan and wasn't paying all that much attention, so the only stuff he actually translated for us were "I should kill you right now" and "to hell with you." And even I could figure out that second one. :)

Yes, the lack of logic and technobabble I can make a decent attempt at believing seem to be one of the least offensive hallmarks of RTD's writing.

So they'd just have the Medusa Cascade to rule? Daleks don't seem very capable of independent thought, but it can't be very satisfying for their rulers. Maybe Davros and the Emperor were planning to race them afterwards, or have big set-piece wargames. ;-)

I do know your thoughts on the ending, and I wouldn't prefer death for Donna. This way she might still find a way to grow since it's only her memories he took, not the way of thinking and acting she's learned, but it still stinks. There were other ways to have her leave whole, perhaps deciding that nothing else could equal the thrill of saving the universe so best to go at a high point. Or because she realised how much the earth and her family meant to her. She's the sort who would just leave once she'd decided to.

Yes, the lack of logic and technobabble I can make a decent attempt at believing seem to be one of the least offensive hallmarks of RTD's writing.

Least offensive, perhaps, but I find it one of the more annoying hallmarks. I don't expect great scientific accuracy from Who, but not insulting my intelligence and showing some sign of at least caring whether things make sense would be good. I do sometimes get the impression that RTD doesn't think the details of how he does things matter... and, of course, they do. If nothing else, when absolutely anything is possible by technobabbly fiat, then no problems are going to feel entirely real and no solutions are going to feel either impossible or necessary.

So they'd just have the Medusa Cascade to rule?

Nah, they'd have a whole universe full of other Daleks. I suspect they'd just stand around all day repeatedly telling themselves how great they are. :)

I do know your thoughts on the ending, and I wouldn't prefer death for Donna.

Well, I sort of would and sort of wouldn't... Part of me is glad she's not dead, but dramatically and emotionally, a good death would have been more satisfying and easier for me to handle.

And, yes, of course there were other possibilities. RTD does seem to have difficulty imagining people leaving the Doctor by choice, though...

I think RTD is in love with Daleks, Cybermen, and spectacle with massed spacships, Daleks and/or Cybermen, and choirs. It was very cool the first time but he keeps coming back to it. This shows a sad lack of imagination.

Nah, they'd have a whole universe full of other Daleks.

But there was the darkness and the stars going out. I imagine it would have eaten the whole of reality eventually. Yeah, right: 27 planets can power that sort of cataclysm.

I think RTD is in love with Daleks, Cybermen, and spectacle with massed spacships, Daleks and/or Cybermen, and choirs.

I don't think any of these are bad things, or even bad things to revisit, although he does perhaps tend to return to those particular wells more often than is really supportable. I'd be perfectly happy with his episodes full of Daleks, Cybermen, spaceships, and choirs if his handling of plot detail and character were better.

But there was the darkness and the stars going out. I imagine it would have eaten the whole of reality eventually.

Well, if you believe Davros' rant, they were going to break the entire universe down into atoms and then build the atoms back up into Daleks. Or something like that. Of course, Davros' ranting tends to be rather, um... grandiose. :) But I'm pretty sure he'd count even ruling over a big, empty nothing as a win. Or thinks that he would, anyway.

Yeah, the insanity would do that.

BTW I haven't seen the rest of 'Genesis of the Daleks' yet. I will in a few days, but I'm a bit over-Daleked right now.

Totally understandable! Hopefully when you do get back to it, it'll make you feel better, though, because it's an infinitely better episode. And there's stuff in it that illustrates why I think Davros' enthusiasm for this whole destroying-the-universe plan is one of the things this one actually got right. Which, y'know, is... something.

yep, Jack we know what you were thinking :D

I too was upset at Donna never knowing how she excelled, blossomed, in the right company

Yeah; it's depressing. Back to hiding her low self-esteem. I wish she'd just chosen to leave because everything else would be an anti-climax, and she realised how much the earth and Wilf meant to her. She'd have the confidence to be anything she wanted to be after all that.

Donna did do very well at imitating Ten, I sort of like her version better...

Yeah, you pretty much pointed out all the things I liked and disliked as well. It felt sort of like Davros was tossed in there and had no major purpose except to add vague-old school continuity, I'd have rather they just left him out altogether. And the Reality Bomb or whatever made pretty much no sense. They seemed to infer that it was only going to kill living things, except by the way they explained it it was going to disintegrate everything. Like when they did the sample on the humans on the Dalek ship I was going "um, okay, why isn't this dissolving the ship too?"

I sort of liked Doctor/Rose before this (though her and Ten never appealed a lot) but ugh, the way it was all pulled off was pretty revolting and made her seem pretty damn shallow.
Not even going to start on Donna, that was the worst part;.

And yeah, why do they bother going "the Daleks are gone FOREVER" almost every time. No one believes it.

"um, okay, why isn't this dissolving the ship too?"

Probably because all the Dalek-made stuff was super-real or something. There wasn't a lot that made logical sense. It's like people out of phase with space or time walking through things but never falling through the floor. That always niggles.

Actually, it was a bit demeaning to Rose after she grew enough to take charge of her own life in that reality.

Yeah. Much as I was delighted to see them the first time in the new series, I've really had enough of Daleks and Cybermen. Something new, please. And not too much of it.

Ugh, yeah. The whole thing was bad for Rose as a character, since the whole return seemed to be based around "I can't possibly live without the Doctor", and the way he pawned him off on her was rather bad. I know he was kind of hiding behind that in a way, but I don't see why she had to get stuck with being responsible for him either.

I love Daleks tons, but yeah after the first season of new series' Daleks I've not been fond of their storylines. Which is sad since they were used a lot in the old series too, but I never actually got that sick of them.

That was probably because there were plenty of non-Dalek stories to break them up.

I liked seeing the Sontarans though. Just the right-sized serving.

I thought the Donna bit was awful too and soooo Mary Sue! She saves reality but at a great cost - she goes back to being the annoying temp she was before she met the Doctor.

Wilfrid was great!!!

At least the riddle of the hand was solved - why it was necessary to keep it bubbling in the jar in the TARDIS.

Davros and the Reality bomb - He is insane and his goal was always to wipe out anything that was not Dalek. So the Dalek race would reign supreme over a big black Nothing.

Damn though, I was looking forward to Davros being hoisted by his own Petard and wiping out the Daleks cos Ten mk2 had reversed the signal and targeted the Dalek race.

My daughter didn't speak German but she was following it by the body language and tone and got the gist and the sense for what was said if not the words themselves. Me I could just about follow it even though it's 20 years since I did it at school.

According to hubby The German for Exterminate was part of a fandom trope with the daleks having invaded earth during the Nazi era. (Scary thought). Ditto the "How many people does it take to fly a Tardis?" _ given there are 6 consoles around the central column.

Jack was priceless in this. I think we all know what he was thinking! Unless you are younger than 10!

I'm still amazed I enjoyed the episode in its entirety, considering all the ose and Mary Suing that was going on.

The ending negated the whole "ordinary people can be amazing and brilliant" thing, leaving Donna without anything she'd gained.

Yeah, the hand was a huge giveaway. I think most of us guessed why it was there.

I love the 6-person crew needed for the TARDIS. It makes so much sense.

I did enjoy the ep as spectacle and companion joy, but the endings ruined it for me.

I just wanted them to get the Rose bits over and done with.
Cracky thought but does clone ten or Donna get to wear this tee shirt?
http://www.totallyteeshirts.com/dr-who---11th-timelord-80-p.asp?gclid=CI6iwaHErJQCFQyR1QodL2hDtg

Bwahaha, that's very cool!

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Doctor Who: Journey's End

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