vilakins: Vila with stars superimposed (jester)
Nico ([personal profile] vilakins) wrote2008-02-21 02:09 pm
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Fools

I’ve just been reading Terry Pratchett’s Wyrd Sisters and I can’t help but wonder whether the Fool, AKA Verence II, is based on Vila. OK, I know that Pratchett despised B7 but maybe he once saw The Keeper and decided to use Vila’s Fool as a character. After all:

  • The Fool is a clever man pretending not to be
  • He has “a face like a spaniel that’s just been kicked”.
  • He’s of a nervous disposition
  • When Magrat really looked at him, she realised that the Fool was not a little man. He was at least of average height but he made himself small, by hunching his shoulders, bandying his legs, and walking in a half-crouch…
I suppose it’s just coincidence, but he talks rather like Vila too--but then, so does Rincewind.

[identity profile] azdak.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 05:32 am (UTC)(link)
he talks rather like Vila too--but then, so does Rincewind.

I have always assumed that Rincewind was directly inspired by Vila - TP must have seen at least a couple of episodes of B7
in order to know that he hated it, and Vila seems such an obvious literary ancestor for Rincewind. Vila without the virtues, if you like, since Rincewind isn't any good at his chosen profession. I can't think of any other characters who admit to unabashed cowardice - Flashman does, but only in his memoirs, so everyone around him thinks he's a hero.

Verence, on the other hand, isn't actually a coward, he's just not a conventional hero. And he cares about people, and takes responsibility for them, much more than canon!Vila.

[identity profile] vilakins.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 05:39 am (UTC)(link)
Verence trembles with fear quite a lot at first, but does toughen up though he remains rather sweet.

Rincewind has some incredibly Vila-esque lines; I keep reading them out to Greg. :-) I'd say he used aspects of Vila for both of them except for his expressed dislike of B7. Perhaps you could even find out; don't you have some contact with TP?

And I'm not too sure that Verence cared too much about people till he gave up his loyalty--I can't see Vila advising urban clearance--and Vila was also surprisingly loyal though I think he'd like being a conjurer and comedian. Plus, Vila cares more than he lets on if you look at his actions rather than his words, though Boucher does almost always write him as selfish, stupid, and useless.

[identity profile] azdak.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 08:55 am (UTC)(link)
don't you have some contact with TP?


I used to have fannish contact - he's a great guy for socialising with his fan base - but I haven't been involved with Discworld fandom for years now (I'm a fan of TP's Middle period, up to and including Feet of Clay. Nothing thereafter has caught my imagination in quite the same way).

And I'm not too sure that Verence cared too much about people till he gave up his loyalty

But holding loyalty as a virtue means caring more about someone else than yourself, I think. Whereas Vila holds no truck with duties and responsibilities (unless they're someone else's, of course).

Vila cares more than he lets on if you look at his actions rather than his words

Oh, absolutely. Same with Avon. But what makes them both interesting, in their very different ways, is that they don't pay lip-service to conventional moral standards, as espoused by eg Blake and Jenna and Gan and Tarrant. They expose other people's hypocrisy by being devastatingly honest about not giving a toss about anyone who isn't them; the fact that they both don't always manage to live down to their professed standards makes them sympathetic, but even so, most of the time their self-assessment is entirely accurate - it's a very small group of people indeed that either of them cares about, and anyone else in the galaxy had better watch out.

[identity profile] vilakins.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 09:10 am (UTC)(link)
Vila was very loyal to Blake and after him, Avon. I wouldn't have been; I'd have been out of there first chance I got.

So there you are: I'm worse than Vila. I require something back.

[identity profile] azdak.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 11:11 am (UTC)(link)
I'm worse than Vila. I require something back.

Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses :-) He's better at picking locks that you, too, but not at seeing the best in people and giving them encouragement.

[identity profile] zoefruitcake.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 09:40 am (UTC)(link)
I prefer the thought of Verence being like him than Rincewind, who I've never been that fond of

[identity profile] azdak.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 11:14 am (UTC)(link)
No, I don't have much time for Rincewind either. But I think Rincewind is more of a one-note character than Vila, who isn't just a coward and a loser. It's in their trumpeting of their own cowardice that they show the most similarities.

[identity profile] vilakins.livejournal.com 2008-02-22 04:30 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, Rincewind's often an annoying loser, but he does have some very Vila-esque lines. I can see Verence as very Vila-like, but then I like Vila more than many fans do.

[identity profile] hafren.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 06:26 am (UTC)(link)
The Fool is a clever man pretending not to be

That's pretty much part of a mediaeval Fool's job description though, isn't it? Vila himself is in a long tradition of jesters who have to placate more powerful people but who often know more than they do. For instance, he has some likenesses to Kipling's Rahere (http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/prose/RewardsFaries/treejustice.html) with his "sad priest's face" "the hollow of his dark cheek flushed with wine", though Rahere is unusual in being very bold in his speech, and doesn't hide his height. He is noted for compassion though; in the Kipling story he befriends a wandering old man, and his historical original (Henry I's fool) is said to have founded Bart's Hospital after seeing a family of lepers in the street.

I didn't know Pterry didn't like B7 -where did he say so?

[identity profile] vilakins.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 08:00 am (UTC)(link)
At least twice I've seen him quotes as saying something like "I might be many things but at least I'm not a Blake's 7 fan."

I know that medieval Fools were accepted as clever and allowed to advise the king with near impunity. I'm not sure Vila's advice was ever taken.

[identity profile] hafren.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 08:45 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure Vila's advice was ever taken

Yes, they were very unwise like that! Except isn't it he who figures out in Trial that Blake will have left a message and how to access it?

[identity profile] vilakins.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 09:08 am (UTC)(link)
Because it was the straight-forward question Gan would have asked, yes. :-)

[identity profile] jhall1.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 10:55 am (UTC)(link)
Maybe it's just B7 fans rather than B7 itself that he doesn't like, then. :) But you could be reading too much into a jokey, throw-away line.

It may be that Verence was partly inspired by Claudius in "I, Claudius". I've never read it, though I saw the BBC adaptation starring Derek Jacobi some thirty years ago. ISTR that Claudius used the disguise of a stuttering fool as a survival strategy in the murderous Roman court.

[identity profile] vilakins.livejournal.com 2008-02-22 04:16 am (UTC)(link)
You should read it! It's wonderful, and so is the BBC series which I must rewatch. Claudius didn't adopt that persona though: he was really a stutterer with a limp, and wrote histories so would probably have been an intellectual or even geek today. Verence is closer to Vila than Claudius though, at least IMO.

[identity profile] the-summoning-d.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 12:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm, that never really occurred to me before. Good point though.
I didn't know Terry doesn't like B7. Bleh. I hate it when my fandoms are at odds.

[identity profile] vilakins.livejournal.com 2008-02-22 04:19 am (UTC)(link)
RIncewind always strikes me as very Vila-like, but the description of Verence, plus his reaction to ending up with his face in Magrat's breasts just when he'd thought he'd been killed also seemed very Vila. But then Rodney on SGA often comes out with Avon and Vila lines at different times so it's probably just coincidence.

[identity profile] miss-next.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 03:34 pm (UTC)(link)
He may have despised B7, but he liked Paul Darrow as Vimes... so much so that I will swear the character has been written round him ever since!

[identity profile] vilakins.livejournal.com 2008-02-22 04:22 am (UTC)(link)
Really! I didn't know that. :-) The Wikipedia says he imagines Vimes as looking like Pete Postlethwaite, and now I suppose I will.

[identity profile] jaxomsride.livejournal.com 2008-02-21 05:54 pm (UTC)(link)
It could just be the two Terry's were inspired by the same source.
Shakespeare's Fool in 12th Night was "Wise enough to play the Fool and to do that well requires some kind of wit."

Not that I'm saying it was Shakespeare that inspired both!

Avon as Vimes, interesting idea. (oh no now have mental image of DiscWorld/Blake's 7 crossover. Servalan meeting Vetinari!)

[identity profile] vilakins.livejournal.com 2008-02-22 04:23 am (UTC)(link)
It's true that both could be from the same archetype, but the description sounded so very Vila. It's probably just coincidence.