Right, repeat slowly "I'm not psychic I couldn't have known". I've been my normal cheerful self in work up until half an hour ago when the news penetrated. It's an automatic response to fell guilty about being normal when other peoples live have just got very, very abnormal but it's not our fault.
Oi you've got a guilt complex bigger than mine. You didn't know any more than I did until half an hour ago and I've spent the morning being jolly with my old folk in work. A little light heartedness in the middle of a disaster can help
I glimpsed the images of 9-11 on a TV screen in the cafeteria at work and assumed it was a movie till I heard two people talking about it. [shivers, remembering]
I found out about this from posts on LJ and the first one likened it to 9-11 which seriously scared me. Damn, but this planet would be a better place without islam.
And Mohammed's wives were all independent women who ran businesses. People take what they want to believe and far too many moslems are violent and opressive, particulary against females.
Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never met a Muslim who was disrespectful towards women or a violent one. Every religion has people hiding behind it who don't play by the rules. There are Christians who claim God tells them to hate gays, Muslims or women who won't submit to the control of men. There are Jews who support the slaughter of Palestinians and the theft of land. There are also Pagans who are more bigoted and vindictive than Fundamentalist Christians.
In my opinion, religion is not the problem, the problem is people being evil people and trying to blame it on religion. On the Iraq war boards on AOL, I found the most aggressive and twisted people were often atheists. ?No religion can be sure of being free of evil individuals. The Muslim Council of Britain condemned the bombings utterly.
I'm glad to hear that; good for them. The muslims I have met here have been lovely (even if some of the women are kept under strict control) with one exception: a guy who beat his wife. I got her to call the police onto him and told her about Women's Refuge and he's been a lot better since.
Oh, yes, I've come across far too many sexist and homophobic Christians as well; I can understand why people are put right off religion. Those particular people totally lack the love they are meant to have for others; I can't help but wonder just how much they understand of Jesus. (Yeah, about as much as Muslims do of Mohammed.) I also know aggressive and arrogant atheists, so yes, you're right. [sighs at the stupidity of people]
However I got really, really upset about the way they treated women in Afghanistan: confined to home, no education or medical treatment--animals would be better off--and the Saudi women who have no rights and can't even show their faces (though the Koran merely advocates modest dress for both sexes) so suppose the difference is that the bigotry and hatred gets practised on a national scale with Islam and the extremists are backed by governments. [tires not to look at the US which is tipping that way too]
Yes, the Taliban were insane. The trouble is that they were students who half understood the Koran and invented an interpretation that allowed them to express their hatred of women. We have a burka for hire in our shop, and it is a disturbing garment.
Parts of America disturb me deeply. They still have arranged marriages in places!
Argh, horrible things! There was a lot of trouble here recently over two Saudi witnesses who had to give evidence in a criminal court case and refused to remove their burkas to be identified--as any witness is legally required to be. OK:
a Muslim MP pointed out that the burka is cultural rather than scriptural and that only modest dress is required for both sexes
both women removed the things to get drivers licences (which, note, they're forbidden to have back in Saudi)
if they obeyed the law back home (despite an appalling lack of rights) they should here, esp in court; what they do in private is their own affair.
I have no idea what happened in the end. Perhaps they were allowed to reveal their faces to some female police officers which seems the perfect solution to me. But really, what an awful life.
Damn, but this planet would be a better place without islam.
I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. Mohammed had some very good ideas (or the agnel he was tlaking to did, depending on your POV). What the world needs less of is morons who take what good peaceful men say and use it as an excuse to kill. *Is a christian, and thus a member of a religion that also has been twisted around to kill people more times than she cares to think about*
OK, I meant islam as it is now. Mohammed's wives were all independent women who ran businesses, but do you think islam allows that now? They deal in oppression and fear, like christians did during the crusades and the inquisition.
I guess my point is that there's not much point in blaming the faith as a whole, since there are most likely Muslims in the world utterly appalled at what the more radical members of thier religeon do.
Oh, I'm sure there are, just as many Christians are appalled at Bush and his far right in the US and their belief they can run the planet. Yeah, I didn't express myself well. Once a bomb in London = the IRA, but now as soon as you hear about anything like this, you know it's middle-east terrorists. :-(
Well, we piss them off too, with our not just forking over our potable water and hardwood lumber and such, but you really can't nuke somebody you share a border with.
There are as many forms of Islam as of Christianity; it is impossible to lump them all together. Doing that causes backlashes such as innocent British Muslims are suffering today, ranging from the petrol bombing of a mosque to being spat on in the street. And this before we actually have any hard evidence that the terrorists were Muslim, beyond a similarity to Madrid and one unknown group claiming responsibility. One of the best things that happened yesterday was the rush of community leaders to denounce the attacks - I was proud of the imam and the bishop standing shoulder to shoulder on television - and the government to disassociate the wider Muslim community from any role in terrorism. They're our citizens and we have to protect them.
Very true. The Muslims here are ordinary people living their lives as best they can like the rest of us (and I don't think there's been any backlash here). It's when religion is also government which can condemn other nations for not being like them and send out fanatic killers that it gets scary. And I'm not just talking about Islam here either; fanatic Muslims are not the only people who frighten me.
the imam and the bishop standing shoulder to shoulder on television
Good for them! I think it's rather like the crusades and the inquisition: the vast majority of people were and are basically good law-abiding citizens, but the planet would have been better off without the fanatic Christian murderers back then too. For some reason certain times and twisted beliefs spawn great evil.
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Hugs to you, we probably shouldn't feel guilty because we didn't know, right? Shit.
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HUGS to you both.
Gina
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[Shrug] They believe they're right, and that their end justifies the means.
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(((((((vilakins))))))))
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I found out about this from posts on LJ and the first one likened it to 9-11 which seriously scared me. Damn, but this planet would be a better place without islam.
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In my opinion, religion is not the problem, the problem is people being evil people and trying to blame it on religion. On the Iraq war boards on AOL, I found the most aggressive and twisted people were often atheists. ?No religion can be sure of being free of evil individuals. The Muslim Council of Britain condemned the bombings utterly.
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Oh, yes, I've come across far too many sexist and homophobic Christians as well; I can understand why people are put right off religion. Those particular people totally lack the love they are meant to have for others; I can't help but wonder just how much they understand of Jesus. (Yeah, about as much as Muslims do of Mohammed.) I also know aggressive and arrogant atheists, so yes, you're right. [sighs at the stupidity of people]
However I got really, really upset about the way they treated women in Afghanistan: confined to home, no education or medical treatment--animals would be better off--and the Saudi women who have no rights and can't even show their faces (though the Koran merely advocates modest dress for both sexes) so suppose the difference is that the bigotry and hatred gets practised on a national scale with Islam and the extremists are backed by governments. [tires not to look at the US which is tipping that way too]
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Parts of America disturb me deeply. They still have arranged marriages in places!
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- a Muslim MP pointed out that the burka is cultural rather than scriptural and that only modest dress is required for both sexes
- both women removed the things to get drivers licences (which, note, they're forbidden to have back in Saudi)
- if they obeyed the law back home (despite an appalling lack of rights) they should here, esp in court; what they do in private is their own affair.
I have no idea what happened in the end. Perhaps they were allowed to reveal their faces to some female police officers which seems the perfect solution to me. But really, what an awful life.no subject
I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. Mohammed had some very good ideas (or the agnel he was tlaking to did, depending on your POV). What the world needs less of is morons who take what good peaceful men say and use it as an excuse to kill. *Is a christian, and thus a member of a religion that also has been twisted around to kill people more times than she cares to think about*
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I'm not sure we could piss off people badly enough if we tried.
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We don't let their nuclear-capable ships come here; that's our problem.
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The utterly tragic thing is, that's probably true.
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the imam and the bishop standing shoulder to shoulder on television
Good for them! I think it's rather like the crusades and the inquisition: the vast majority of people were and are basically good law-abiding citizens, but the planet would have been better off without the fanatic Christian murderers back then too. For some reason certain times and twisted beliefs spawn great evil.