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The good, the bad, and the impossibly beautiful

I am delighted to see that Terry Pratchett has a knighthood. Perhaps even Vimes would approve. :-)

I just finished reading Jingo yesterday, and rather think it joins my favourite Discworld novels. I loved this one: very funny (esp The Boat--yes, I did get the reference; Nobby finding his feminine side; Vetinari's hidden talents with melons, knives, and donkeys) and it had bite too. And of course there was the wonderful Vimes who ended up on a very short honours list himself. :-)

I've just started Saturn Rukh by Robert L Forward, grabbed from the library shelf because it looked like a nice bit of hard SF with interesting aliens. That may well all be true, but I'm very put off by his Mary and Marty Sue: the mission leader is the suggestively named Rod Morgan, blond, muscled, and handsome, and the pilot is Chastity Blaze. Blaze? For a rocket pilot? Who has the surname Blaze, and who calls their kid Chastity anyway? A touch of the Modesty Blaises by any chance? This woman is as tall and muscled as Rod, and has long. curly raven locks... and violet eyes. I've been reminded of this twice so far and I'm only on page 17. A brief flip though turned up at least one more reference to her eye colour just in case I forgot, and what is it with violet eyes anyway? They always sound bloodshot to me.

However there are aliens and hard SF so I shall keep going. At least Forward writes females doing real jobs.

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Forward, from the stuff of his I've read, is good with aliens and technology, and crap with characters.

Ah, I do love Jingo. I re-read 'Thud!' at the weekend. Heh. I'm so used to my username as a username, now and then I forget where it's from...

The only other one of his I've read was the pastiche Camelot 30K. I'll forgive a fair bit for decent science and aliens, and for women being equal (even if it looks as if the badly-named Chastity will sleep with all of the crew). The (female) middle-aged biologist is so far the only one with any real character.

I haven't read that one yet. One of my friends said that the humour had largely gone by now, but I disagree; this was really funny and a wonderful Klatchian romp. Mind you, she thought "Small Gods" was funny whereas I thought it wasn't at all.

Speaking of usernames, I do find the name of Vimes' and Lady Sybil's butler Willikins a bit disconcerting. :-P

*pauses in confusion* I'm trying to comprehend how someone could not find 'Jingo' funny, but I just can't wrap my head around it. And I don't think 'Small Gods' was one of his better ones. You should have a read at 'Thud!' - it reinforces the many reasons why Vimes is so very, very awesome. Plus the DisOrganiser finally gets to be useful!

I can see why XD

He gets the DisOrganiser back? Last I heard, it was predicting the other trouser leg of time, then doing a better job in a shark. BTW that was about the only bit I didn't like: that another Vimes and his Watch died.

I'm reading in order, but I've decided I like the Vimes books best, followed by the Granny ones.

It's another one. He keeps 'losing' them, and Sybil keeps getting him new ones.

Oh, definitely. The watch books are my favourite too.

I don't think Small Gods was funny - not sure it was meant to be - but I do think it was one of his most powerful. I wish he hadn't accepted the gong, because I always think more of people who refuse them (the late great Humph, for instance).

Hm. How old is Robert Forward? Because I'm put in mind of Chastity Bono. You might not have heard of her, but she was the very famous child of a very famous rockstar couple back in the 60s here. I did think it was weird at the time, but now I don't even blink at it. OTOH, I have a soft spot for most of the virtue names--prudence, charity, etc.

I'm stuck at Small Gods. I can't say whether it wasn't amusing me because it wasn't my kind of funny, or because I just can't take too much Pratchett at one time and I'd just read the two previous books. It's probably time I picked it up and tried again, because I think that was in 2006.

I thought Jingo got its point--about racism--across is a much less heavy-handed way than Small Gods. I dislike being preached at.

Forward has grown children; that's all I know. [looks him up] Oh OK, he was born in 1932 and dies in 2002 which I didn't know. The book was published in 1997. I rather think he was either thinking of Modesty Blaise, maybe even subconsciously, or he wanted an ironic name as she's not at all chaste. Still, as I said, she's a tough pilot and that makes up for some of it (but not the violet eyes).

I didn't like Small Gods or Eric much at all. You could try one of the Watch books; I do love Samuel Vimes and his world.

BTW there are lots more books before Small Gods. Have a look at the reading order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld#Novels), which I'm working my way through. I'm reading all of them, but if you find a group or two you like, you could decide stick to that. I like the City Watch ones best, and the witch ones too, but you could see which you like. The wizard ones are quite as good IMO though I do love Ridcully the head of the Unseen University. I'd probably omit Eric (just wasn't up to par) and Small Gods which I didn't like, and you obviously didn't either.

Life is too short to read books you don't like. :-)

Oh, the point it always made to me (and surprised me with) was forgiveness at the end.

Don't you think it's strange that Mary Sues get published? Wonder if publishers/editors know about them in the SF genre, sometimes.

I just HAVE to read Pratchett. Can't believe I haven't. Got a rec ofr Peter Hamilton today ... have you read him? Apparently they are huge adn wordy, so I'm looking for a second opinion.

Yes, I started at the beginning and am going straight through, as you are. It's just taking me a long time, because after a book or two I want a long break from them. I appreciate knowing there's a listing on Wikipedia, though, because I'm always misplacing the one I wrote out by hand. Ain't the Internet grand?

Anyway, my favorites have always been Rincewind and Death, though Vimes may overtake them soon; I do like him (although I can never decide whether the thought of Paul Darrow playing him on stage is intriguing or horrifying). Rincewind makes me think of Vila, though, as there was a B7/Discworld crossover on the Lyst about the time I first joined, and if I recall correctly, several crewmembers looked like several Discworld inhabitants, with Vila being mistaken for Rincewind; it may have been inspired by PD's having played Vimes, I'm not really sure. Sadly, I don't think the last couple of chapters of that fic were ever written.

Mostly, I really agree with you about not reading books you don't like; but if I didn't push myself occasionally, I'd stay in a very narrow, comfortable reading rut made up of cozy mysteries and fantasy PIs. So I do read some things that I'd rather not from time to time. It's a bit like eating one's beets [substitute your own least-favorite vegetable]. :)

I thought Jingo was a one-trick pony. It belaboured the point too much. In his other books, he can put the same amount of meaning into a single sentence.

My favourites are the witches, Death and the Librarian.

By the way, there's a Vila songvid for you at http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lzQ351pH4eg

Happy new year!

The only person I can think of who was cruel enough to give her daughter the name Chastity was Cher, which probably tells us all we need to know.

I always think that's the ultimate arrogance, to be offered something like that and turn it down, as if you're somehow so special that not even a knighthood is enough for you.

I loved Pratchett's reaction, saying that, for two pins, he'd get himself a horse and a sword too.

I love Terry Pratchett er make that Sir Terry Pratchett! Jingo was excellent, though it's hard for me to name a favorite. I adore Soul Music(how could you not like Sex, Dwarfs, and Rocks that Roll?) and the Hogfather still makes me belly laugh. Ah Discworld!

The people I have known who turned it down frequently did so on the ground that honours should only be offered for acts of bravery or self-sacrifice, not enjoying oneself in the exercise of one's profession. There was no arrogance about the civil servant friend who turned down an MBE offered, basically, because he'd stuck it out for 30 years, because, he said, he couldn't face standing in a line with lifeboatmen and firemen who had saved life at the risk of their own.

Agreed with all that. Also at his best Pratchett is so awesome that a lack of humour wouldn't matter that much. After reading his first two Discworld books, "Colour of Magic" and "The Light Fantastic", and been only moderately impressed, I remember how blown away I was by "Equal Rites", the first proper Discworld novel, where he added proper characterisation and plot to the jokes. For about 50 pages early on, it was as if he was channeling Ursula LeGuin, and that there weren't any jokes in that section didn't matter.

One other thing about "Jingo": the "alternative reality" section was tremendously affecting.

From the description of her, I'm sure the choice of name must have been deliberate. Does Rod Morgan have any Willie Garvin characteristics?

I know what you mean. In some of the books it isn't really about the humour - it's a nice extra, but you've also got brilliant characterisation, absorbing plots, and all sorts of other happy-making things.

I did find myself tearing up a bit at that part of 'Jingo' - it's chilling to hear what could have happened.

I've read Peter Hamilton's stuff. It's good if you're into hard sci-fi, even if it does get a bit...metaphysical in places. Plus I take issue with the ending, but that might just be me.

I don't think I've read him. I do prefer more manageable books that are efficient in their use of prose. This wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_F._Hamilton) may help. :-)

I started reading Pratchett about two years ago, slow to get to them because the old covers made the books look lewd. In fact they're very clever, often with biting social commentary (though I disliked Small Gods which was too serious and preachy and lacked humour). With a couple of exceptions, I love the books.

I'd start from the beginning going by this reading order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld#Novels). I do think he was finding his way with the first two, and I'd avoid Eric which I found substandard (though his standard is very high). I have discovered that I most love the City Watch books followed by the Witches (though one-offs like Pyramids are also loads of fun). Also, who knew that Death (who is in almost every book) could be such a great character?

I'm still just over halfway through; I'd like to see what you think of them. I have to say that Pratchett creates a lot of very distinct and fascinating characters who grow with each book, and that's pretty amazing in a comic writer, though one with surprising depth.

mistraltoes said! I've read further and apparently she's the daughter of a minister and was thrown out of her home for heavy petting in the graveyard, a slight attempt at character background which doesn't seem to have affected her as an adult. It still doesn't explain the "Blaze" unless I find later that she changed it because of her parents. But then, she'd surely have changed the "Chastity". I'm putting it down to bad character writing and maybe some comic-book influence.

I'm reading through in order, and loving it. The characters are wonderful! I'd find it hard to name a favourite (as with most things) but I'd put Jingo up there with Wyrd Sisters, Guards Guards!, and Men at Arms. Favourite characters are Vimes, Granny, Death, and Ridcully.

Janeway! I don't often see her in icons, and I think I'm in a minority for liking her a lot.

I did like that bit. :-)

So some souls do endure after death; usually they dissipate. Perhaps it depends on what they believe (or don't) as the accountant barbarian was taken to Valhalla by a large blonde woman on a horse.

Rincewind does say a lot of Vilaesque things, and I tend to imagine him as about Vila's age, not the ancient bearded guy they had on TV. After all, he has a good turn of speed. I don't imagine Vimes as being at all like PD though; I have my own image of a thin, tough, weather-beaten guy. I'd like to have seen PD's interpretation though.

Oh wow, thank you! Poor Vila. [hugs him] That's awesome, and the mixed metaphors aren't just appropriate but so very him.

Not that I can see; he's the mission commander and has "coupled" with her before (but not on this trip).

Yes yes all those characters are marvelous! Especially Death! Love the ones with him. Oh and Rincewind! I adore Rincewind the Wizzard.

I looooovvveee Captain Janeway! A friend of mine who I call Admiral Cutthroat(if you ever played Uno with her you'd understand) and I get together once a week to watch Voyager or DS9. We both have much Janeway/Kate Mulgrew love. So you're not alone!

I agree; the first two books were him finding his feet. I wasn't that impressed either; in fact there was a long gap between books till I hit the third. I totally agree.

It was also disturbing, as I assume that reality was also as... real.

I thought it actually did happen in that AU, which I found very disturbing.

Oh, excellent! Do you like TNG at all? I did also love Picard and Data.

Now I have more icon slots, I should get some ST ones.

OH darling I'm all about Star Trek. My old lj name used to reflect that. hehe Though DS9 is my favorite, the TNG crew has a special place in my heart. Love Data, Picard, Geordi, Dr. Crusher(OMG I've written poetry about Dr. Crusher)...love the whole lot actually.

All my icons are sharable I've got a quite a few Trek related ones. If you see any you like feel free to take them. :)

Oh, I love that Data one! Thanks very much for the offer; I'll take a look. The only ST series I didn't much like was Enterprise.

I'm going to scan in a 2008 ST:TOS calendar (and a Simpsons one) for people's pleasure and for icon use if anyone wants. There's a stunning Uhura.

Why do Mary Sues have violet eyes? You can blame Barbara Cartland whose heroines all had that improbable eye colour and usually white blond or raven tresses too. In fact reading her character descriptions you can see where the original Mary Sue and Marty Stu were born.

I was delighted to hear Terry got a knighthood but it makes me have this image of the queen giggling over his books, which considering how anti-monarchist the Ankh Morpork stories are is even more entertaining. I heard it literally on the radio at work and it included a clip of his reaction- he sounded very pleased if somewhat surprised.

I've never read Cartland, but I can imagine it. :-P

Ah, but Vimes did accept his knighthood and dukedom, even though he doesn't really approve. I heard Terry said something funny about getting himself a horse and a sword too. :-)

Definitely not a Garvin clone then. Willie Garvin was Modesty's closest friend but was about the only man that she never bedded. Their relationship was always strictly platonic.

Yep. My point exactly. :-)

Oh cool, good for him! I have a lot of respect for him, though I don't generally read his books.

Y-e-e-s. Sueish indeed. Still, hard sci-fi good!

The SF and the aliens are intriguing, and that does outweigh the violet eyes (which I've now been told about five or six times).

Sorry about the delay writing back.

Going to grab some Pratchett at the library next week ... I'll let you know what I think.

I'll give it a try. Thanks for the extra info.

I tried to read Saturn Rukh but lost interest after about 150 pages. Too much of a space opera, especially with the reader constantly being reminded of Chastity Blaze's, well, dual assets. Yes, how many times have we heard of a woman with the body of a greek goddess? One has to wonder if all astronauts do in their spare time is join the "Outer Space Club".

I love sci-fi, but the Forward went way, waaaaaaaay too far in depth with the technical details. He also spent 20 pages or so describing the rukh flying through the air when five pages would've done.

I didn't mind the technical details and the stuff about the rukhs--I like hard SF--but he took too long to tell a rather simple story.

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The good, the bad, and the impossibly beautiful

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Saturn Rukh

Re: Saturn Rukh